tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post293774379847822592..comments2024-03-19T12:13:34.854-04:00Comments on Yeshivat Deah VeHaskel: Torah, Science and Women's IssuesRabbi Joshua Maroofhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12585369620887846940noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-8098920504379005482012-11-20T22:30:02.801-05:002012-11-20T22:30:02.801-05:00Of course the nature of men is also different. Th...Of course the nature of men is also different. The decent, caring men we try to raise now, would not, to give an example of R' Akiva above, become hostile because their wives aren't wearing make-up. So a lot of this is cultural and can change. but certainly the statements about what women are actually capable of is a scientific statement as much as whether elephants can jump and then this is all reminiscent of Natan Slifkin's Torah and Science. However, even if you get rid of the g'mara's statements this way, you still have to deal with tora law as opposed to rabbinic. I guess that could also be cultural -- that very few women they knew were ever educated and raised to be capable of judging, but this seems difficult in light of the strong women in tana"kh. It must be remembered that the only reaosn that the g'mara really discusses women (well not the only, but the most relevant) is to explain why they can't be witnesses or judges etc., which was an old tradition the orthodox among us would probably say went all the way back. So if we reject their reasons about women, as we reject why lice are allowed to be killed on shabat, then we need to come up with another solution, as we did with lice.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18406574444546842419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-18171078325529892412012-10-21T17:04:37.019-04:002012-10-21T17:04:37.019-04:00The idea is that the social convention at the time...The idea is that the social convention at the time of the elders (and probably in the Biblical period as seen in the example of Lavan stopping his search for the terafim when learning that Rachel is niddah) is that a woman who is niddah should "look the part" and not adorn herself.<br /><br />The social convention at the time of R. Akiva (I don't think you would argue that this is personal taste) is that a woman should look appealing to her husband at all times. This would be a change in social conventions which leads to a change in halacha - the first elders were likely not contemporaneous with R. Akiva so it's not an argument - it's a change.<br /><br />According to your understanding would it be fair to say: giving women aliyot on ST has nothing to do with our understanding of what Simchat Torah or Kriyat Hatorah is, rather it is a dispute of how to balance the separation of gender roles with expressing love for the Torah?Ericnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-6306443590222439082012-10-21T06:34:54.078-04:002012-10-21T06:34:54.078-04:00Eric,
That doesn't seem like a very persuasiv...Eric,<br /><br />That doesn't seem like a very persuasive example. Rabbi Aqiva and the Elders are arguing about how much distance between a husband and wife should be rabbinically mandated during the period of niddah. It has nothing to do with their substantive understanding of what niddah is; rather, it is a dispute about how to balance the separation with the value of Shalom Bayit.Rabbi Joshua Maroofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12585369620887846940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-39552601608877508722012-10-21T00:19:31.447-04:002012-10-21T00:19:31.447-04:00>I don't think that the Talmud's
>di...>I don't think that the Talmud's<br />>discussions of women were meant as <br />>nothing more than commentary on<br />>social mores or conventions that<br />>have now changed.<br /><br />I agree with you - they have not changed now - they are continually changing.<br /><br />Look at Sifra Metzora 9:12 (brought by Moshe Halbertal in one of his books)<br /><br />"והדוה בנדתה" - The original elders would say, let her be in her niddah - she should not wear make-up until she immerses in a mikve. Until R. Akiva came and learned, the matter will come to animosity and he will divorce her. How do I fulfill "והדוה בנדתה"? She remains a niddah until she immerses.<br /><br />Leaving aside the issue of flexibility of drashos - there seems to be a changing of mores. The elders saw niddah as a time of distance and required her to be without make-up. Rabbi Akiva was able to fulfill the pasuk's dictate in another way, thus avoiding an undesirable situation. I don't think R. Akiva is innovating a law here, he is taking the verse which implies that niddah is pervasive and connecting it to the fact that the woman remains niddah until she immerses.<br /><br />There are many sources in Chazal themselves that suggest that they were willing to "change with the times" when the need arose. I find it interesting that Chazal were willing to interpret Biblical verses differently when the need arose, yet many in our generation are unwilling to interpret Chazal's pronouncements when the need arises.Ericnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-62561050672204159772012-10-20T23:14:11.900-04:002012-10-20T23:14:11.900-04:00I don't think a Jewish ideal, to be found in d...I don't think a Jewish ideal, to be found in dozens of pesukim and dozens of halachos, can or should be discarded because similar arguments (I am unfamiliar with) are to be found in other religions. If anything, the current burden of proof regarding authenticity rests upon those who are seeking to change the paradigm.RDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00770753563350077687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-17728667172366389672012-10-19T15:08:06.114-04:002012-10-19T15:08:06.114-04:00One more thing about why I find the halachic appro...One more thing about why I find the halachic approach so appealing: The essence of being a Torah Jew is the experience of being commanded -- in almost every aspect of life. The philosophical arguments regarding the differences between men and women do not require that framework, and in fact prominent thinkers of other religions make pretty much the same kinds of arguments. I would think that an argument that is unique to rabbinic Judaism ought to be given more credence than one that Christians have been making!Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-75201107451072472972012-10-19T15:04:33.192-04:002012-10-19T15:04:33.192-04:00"the Torah gives us an eternal, sacrosanct an..."the Torah gives us an eternal, sacrosanct and absolute set of principles through which to understand males and females and their respective places in the world"<br /><br />There are only about a dozen mitzvot from the Torah in which men are chiyuv and women are patur. There are far more differences in the levels of obligation between Kohanim and Yisraelim, yet nobody claims that there are eternal sacrosanct priciples for that distinction! And for most of these dozen or so mitzvot, women (at least in Ashkenazic practice) are encouraged to take them on and recite the blessings beforehand. Womens' sections tend to be packed on Rosh Hashanah for the blowing of the shofar. This is a pretty thin thread on which to build a Theology of the Differences Between Men and Women. <br /><br /><br />"The third response available when we discover a conflict between Torah and Science or between theory and empirical data is to downplay or dismiss the former in favor of the latter. Some variation of this stance, which is highly troubling to those in the traditionalist camp, seems to be the one adopted by many of the advocates of Open Orthodoxy."<br /><br />I find the rejection of empirical data to be troubling. And this should particularly true in a religion such as Judaism that relies on empirical observation! (Has the sun set? Does the animal have the kosher signs?....)<br /><br /><br />"They argue, in the spirit of the Gaonim, Maimonides and many others, that we are not obligated to accept the scientific and sociological statements recorded in the Talmud, just as we are not obligated to embrace the literal truth of its many Aggadic and homiletic passages."<br /><br />The Gaonim and Rambam were Open Orthodox? I would never have known! ;)<br /><br /><br />" a way to integrate the truths of tradition with the facts on the ground"<br /><br />Rabbi Avraham Ben HaRambam addresses this in his famous essay that is now used as the preface to *Ein Yaakov*. <br /><br />"I don't think that the Talmud's discussions of women were meant as nothing more than commentary on social mores or conventions that have now changed."<br /><br />Unclear to me. For one thing, we do have in our history a female judge, numerous female prophets, a female ruling monarch, and a female tanna. WADR, those are all much more important roles than 'Tabbi'. ;). So it is clear that in at least some circumstances women can perform some public leadership roles (and quite well). <br /><br />Did Chazal see their assessments of natural and social science as infallible? Certainly not the former. And I find it much easier to explain difficult sections of the Talmud by simply concluding that Chazal did the best they could do with the limited methodology of their time. Ditto the Gaonim and Rishonim. I object both to ascribing supernatural powers to the authors of the Talmud and also to the nihilistic POV that they can be ignored because they were not perfect, chas v'shalom!<br />Charlie Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17667135360784254574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-3410467998474267602012-10-19T14:45:44.766-04:002012-10-19T14:45:44.766-04:00RMJ - "I think they were intended as stateme...RMJ - "I think they were intended as statements about some objective reality..."<br /><br />can you state what they are and if not why not. can you describe a coherent meta halachik guideline that if tested by history would be usable ? that would add to the discussion otherwise were are we? and lastly , why can't some of chazal's statements be eternal and some not - why either or. chazal and others seem to have the fluidity and flexibility to seems to be missing at times today. OTOH, it has to be based on the sources otherwise we are left with no mesora. RGTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-21575132596389254792012-10-19T14:35:13.467-04:002012-10-19T14:35:13.467-04:00Ksil - what a fitting screen name. Ksil - what a fitting screen name. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-65964692418438236052012-10-19T14:00:09.573-04:002012-10-19T14:00:09.573-04:00only strong leaders and brave men (yes, men, unfor...only strong leaders and brave men (yes, men, unfort) will step up and reinterpret the torah and our tradition to fit with current modern thinking.<br /><br />lakewood and boro park (and broyde and maroof) can stick their feet in the mud and not move, but the world, and this religion, will pass them by.ksilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-33365848923562417732012-10-19T12:48:06.824-04:002012-10-19T12:48:06.824-04:00My point is that I agree with Rabbi Davidovich tha...My point is that I agree with Rabbi Davidovich that halakhic analyses like the one provided by Rabbi Broyde do not address the deeper ideological factors at play, at least not openly.<br /><br />I don't think that the Talmud's discussions of women were meant as nothing more than commentary on social mores or conventions that have now changed.<br /><br />I think they were intended as statements about some objective reality. Whether they were meant to represent eternal tradition and are therefore binding positions or they were the products of the Sages' own musings on the subject, possibly informed by the cultural and/or scientific opinions of their day, is the question at hand, I believe. Rabbi Joshua Maroofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12585369620887846940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-86403864111941451272012-10-19T10:43:39.901-04:002012-10-19T10:43:39.901-04:00"he Torah gives us an eternal, sacrosanct and..."he Torah gives us an eternal, sacrosanct and absolute set of principles through which to understand males and females and their respective places in the world."<br /><br />can you elucidate with details of the set of principles and their respective places?RGTnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-33081113.post-29457483187838572742012-10-19T02:34:52.495-04:002012-10-19T02:34:52.495-04:00Nice post. Your categories are reminiscent of Ram...Nice post. Your categories are reminiscent of Rambam's three approaches to aggadah - those who accept the words of Chazal without reservation, those who accept the words of philosophy without reservation, and the last "group" which tries to synthesize between the two. Your group that uses halachic arguments as separate from extra-halachic concerns seems forced. I suspect that most of the people in this camp would actually fall more neatly into the Chazal-only or the synthesis group (and might just be afraid to commit to one or the other for other reasons). In my mind (from his written work) R. Broyde is in the synthesis group and not for drawing a distinction between "dry" halacha and what society is willing to tolerate.<br /><br />Also, I'm not sure I would use "Torah-science" to describe Judaism's conflict with society's increasing equality of women in all spheres. Something like Torah-Mada or Torah-Derech Eretz would be more appropriate, although those have also come to signify something very different than what I think you refer to. We are talking about societal conventions (which change by definition) here and not scientific fact (which should be timeless although clearly there are paradigm shifts in how we perceive it). Thus, a priori, the capacity for change in women's roles seems much more flexible both halachically and hashkafically than killing lice or saving an eight month old fetus. Or do you claim that Chazal thought that women were inherently intellectually inferior and incapable of ritual performance and now we know otherwise (provide source)?Ericnoreply@blogger.com